Part 2:Racism in all its forms We discuss her point about overt racism further in comparison to todays covert racism and further discuss institutional racism: Lela: There was quite a lot of not overt racism (referring to her experience growing up) so I remember one incident, we went to one catholic primary and secondary school… one of the girls whose name I remember distinctly … called my a (N word) in the playground and I remember one of the teachers slapped her when found out and again because in those days … it was permitted really. That actually did make a positive difference for me because that said that someone would stand up for you, and that it would be a teacher made it tolerable to turn up in school rather than not want to go. We had one particular dinner lady, there were a couple of them that weren't that nice, one of them that was particularly nasty to all the children in primary school who were not white, and there weren’t many of us, would give us half portions, she would mess up the food when she would put it on your plate and you notice these things. In a way it was covert and overt and there were one or two children who would say ‘oh why don’t you have some of mine?’. So it was clearly noticeable and yet in hindsight it was allowed to continue for the whole time. Other adults must have noticed…. That was just every single day, that she (dinner lady) would do that. In secondary school it was much more Covert. I had this weird experience of both being popular and experiencing covert, a little less overt racism. I was always either voted as form captain or sport games captain but at the same time and I had a group of friends and within that group everybody was white except one person who was Indian origin and there was one particular girl who was quite well-off and she would throw the parties and never never once, not once did I get invited. Everybody would go … I was fully aware… she was nice to me in the group, it wasn't like we were enemies … but never. General Culture in schools and racism…. Lela: At the time I was growing up,I wasn’t particularly conscious of what was happening so I Didn't have a perspective on not learning about the role of non-white people in the world war for example or why you wouldn’t give an example of a black scientist. It was just assumed that that was okay and I didn't question it until I was quite a bit older. I think it is still pretty rife and now with the whole George Floyd and Black Lives Matter people are becoming a bit more conscious. When I worked in Islington we had an initiative on World History all year round because I don’t really approve of Black History Month … I think it's a bit of an insult to be honest… It obviously started in America … and it came here. I can see how as a starting point it’s fine but as an ongoing point it is insulting. It's great that (multimedias do it), but it's all crammed into one month. From an education point of view, there is no progression in learning and what I mean by that is you learn the same thing when you're 7 years old and when you’re 17 in terms of Black History. The idea of embedding it so that you’re learning around a black perspective, basically you're learning about world history even if you focus only on British History, Black people and Asian people and others were here, they’ve been here for ages. What happens with Black History Month, everyone crams it in and covers the same thing year after year … it’s often not age appropriate… including slavery. You don’t prepare the ground and suddenly dump it on primary school children … which is actually quite traumatic, not just to the Black kids but the White Kids as well. When you’re teaching about fairies etc. you're not talking about the kings and queens of Africa and African fables and myths. You are actually instead just giving the story of a very one-sided perspective of Black History which starts often with slavery which actually the psychological impact of that...is pretty grim. To have Black history as a point in time to reflect in October and look back at … I could live with… but the time and only time that schools do anything is frankly not acceptable. When questioned further on Black history month…. Lela: Just describing the trauma, you are effectively giving a very narrow view of a Black experience and you are reinforcing an inferiority whereas if you started talking about the kingdoms and the inventions and the different things that might be funny, cartoons … you see a much well-rounded.The whole way in which the Black History is approached … reinforces and cements the prejudice that exists because in a way you could argue that there is no such thing as Black History but there's history and Black people are in it, the same as anybody else. When raising that sometimes Black History month may be the only opportunity to talk about Black history or a diverse curriculum, Lela responds: Lela: “You’ve got to take the opportunities you’ve got. It’s better to do something than nothing. I think that for people like you and your committee, it’s absolutely right to use the opportunity. However, what I’m saying really is that those in power and who are in charge cannot expect that we should accept that as the ultimate destination and a victory. We’re just saying that in normal everyday….in normal ordinary situations we have to see black people as presenters, you have to be telling the black history story and you don’t have to just wait for Black History month to cram it all in. You can’t possibly see everything because there’s so much of it we can’t get to see all the stuff. On discussing Racism and Capitalism: Lela: I can’t claim to be an expert … on a personal level I do think that capitalism is the root of a lot of the racism that has occurred and that the same time I would say that capitalists, there is also a distinction. My personal view is that people, capitalism will do what it needs to do. It will co-opt Black people and African people … and so on if it’s in its interests generally. One of the things I’ve always thought is that true racism, real racism is when even for profit, people don’t do the right thing. That is real racism. Whereas what my observation is with a lot of capitalists or people who are pro-capitalism is that actually they will twist and bend their way in order to/if it suits them because of exploitation. So I do think that there is something in terms of anti-capitalism which is useful to create solidarity between black people and poor white people for example. I think there is something there that we don’t properly focus on. So therefore there is a bit of a dividing rule. This thing about critical thinking is actually to present to young people the different models the world has done.You might say well actually if you take the view that capitalism has created these positive things, you have to then say well what are the negative things that have arisen out of capitalism. From the world at large, capitalism and racism have come hand in hand in terms of the macro-position of the world but at the same time I probably wouldn’t make the mistake of thinking they have to be together because I think that actually my suspicion is that one of the consequences of Black Lives Matter will be that they will co-opt Black people into the capitalist agenda. You will then have a split that is the capitalists and the others. Interview and Transcript written by Maroua Baaziz
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February 2021
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